Bonus Episode: Insights from MGMA's Black Healthcare Leaders Resource Group
Download MP3Hi, everyone. I'm Daniel Williams, senior editor at MGMA and host of the MGMA Podcast Network. Today, we have a special treat for you. MGMA editor and writer, Colleen Luckett, sits down with dynamic health care leaders, Kim Tolliver and Tayah Gordon, to discuss the importance of representation in health care leadership. The conversation highlights the creation and impact of MGMA's Black Healthcare Leaders Resource Group.
Daniel Williams:It's a dedicated space for mentorship, networking, and advocacy. So tune in to learn how these leaders are driving change, fostering support, and shaping the future of medical practice management. Let's go to their conversation now.
Collen Luckett:Alright. So number one, as I said, you've been key to helping launch the Black Healthcare Leaders Resource Group at AMGMA. Can you talk about what that experience was like at the first leaders conference, and what it's been like continuing the connections and conversations with that group since then? Or have you had a chance to do that?
Kem Tolliver:Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. So maybe, Tayah, you can kinda talk about how you and Otis kinda got everything kicked off. And
Taya Gordon:Sure. Yeah. It was it was super interesting. We were, first of all, very honored, to be included in this and asked to lead that group and and sort of given free reign to structure what we needed to create a space where people felt seen and included and welcome, which was really, really beautiful. And, I was so intrigued because when it first started, we were just kind of like, hey.
Taya Gordon:We're here. If you wanna meet with us, we'd love to meet with you. And the response was just astounding, especially at that first meeting because Otis and I were kind of like, well, you know, we'll we'll reach out to these folks. We'll see if we can connect and make some really solid connections with people. And Kim was like, no.
Taya Gordon:I'm finding everybody in the entire MGMA conference, and I'm dragging them here. And she did. I mean, she was running through the building, like,
Kem Tolliver:hey. You've gotta
Taya Gordon:join us. This is amazing. It was such a powerful and engaging first meeting.
Kem Tolliver:Awesome.
Taya Gordon:We ran out of chairs and and I remember
Collen Luckett:that was in Nashville. Right? Yeah. That was a freaking I I saw that. That was a
Taya Gordon:write down who wanted to be part of the group. And, I would be lying if I said it wasn't incredibly emotional, I think, for all of us. And to see the group continue to grow the next year, it was just even, I think, more emotional, but in just such a beautiful way.
Collen Luckett:Can you expand on that? Like, yeah. What does that mean for you? Beautiful and
Taya Gordon:So yeah. Yeah. I think well, and I will I'll leave some space for Kim too. But I think for me, you know, typically when we walk into the health care conference, you often feel seen in the conference as a practice administrator or as whatever your job title is Mhmm. Or by the people that you've met before or by for whatever need that you have.
Taya Gordon:Maybe you're there to seek out specific types of vendors. It's very different when you walk into a room and everybody that is in that room with you, they look like you. They look like your family members. Yeah. It felt like like going home to a party and and hanging out with people, and it just it made the space feel not just professional and, like, it was a space for growth, but it was suddenly much more comfortable.
Taya Gordon:And, that was it was almost overwhelming, I feel. I don't know about you, Kim.
Kem Tolliver:Yeah. You know, I I definitely agree with you, Tayah. It it almost felt like we were in, like, a cousin's, like, kick back, sit down on the couch, and just, like, share what, you know, what's been happening in your world. And your world is very similar to my world. So it it really definitely, it it was a it was definitely a beautiful, time together.
Kem Tolliver:And then when we also look at the way that we interacted with each other, it just felt very organic. There wasn't anything that that felt too formal. And we were able to just kinda let our hair down immediately. And, you know, being being in a a space where, as Tayah said, you know, everyone looks like you, in health care, for for us, that that's that's not easy to find. And I I think all of us kind of paused for a moment and said, oh, okay.
Kem Tolliver:We're all here. But then also, I think there was a lot of reflection about, how appreciative we were for of MGMA to identify the need for resources. Resources that you can connect with at a deeper level. And that's, I think, what we were able to accomplish is that deeper level connection. When when you know, Tayah and I have been participating in MGMA and other conferences, but especially MGMA conferences for years, whether it's participating as just an attendee or as speakers, or as facilitators and panelists or helping with developing educational ideas and topics and content.
Kem Tolliver:But to have that opportunity to to to to look at people who we know are going through some of the similar experiences that we've gone through in our careers.
Collen Luckett:Right.
Kem Tolliver:And give and be able to give back to them. So one of the the the huge components of why Tayah and I volunteer so much time with MGMA is because we are so, engaged in returning the favors, giving back to the health care community specifically. And this resource group allows us to do that at a in a deeper in a deeper way.
Collen Luckett:Great. Beautiful. Now I can see. Beautiful and emotional. So and I was just thinking as you were speaking, what what kind of trend I mean, if you can remember from that first conference, what kind of so you're there and you're with your, your community and, you you said you had similar experiences.
Collen Luckett:What what were some of those similar experiences that kinda came up there? Or I
Taya Gordon:mean There were so many of them.
Collen Luckett:I think Yeah.
Taya Gordon:Yeah. I think, more so than the specific scenarios, I'll give you more some generalizations.
Collen Luckett:Yeah.
Kem Tolliver:I
Taya Gordon:think there was there was something incredible about how quickly people were comfortable being vulnerable in that setting. And so where Kevin and I have been teaching for a long time, we've been mentors for a long time, and we'll say, like, is there anything I can help you with? Are you challenged with anything personally or professionally? And people often like, no. No.
Taya Gordon:No. Or I might seek out my certification. And, you know, in this space, when we got into that room together and we're like, is there anything that you guys need help with? And, I mean, people were right up front. Like, I've got a boss that doesn't wanna see me succeed, and I'm struggling at work.
Taya Gordon:And I'm having an issue with a coworker. And, I mean, it all came out. And it was it was so incredible, like, how quickly they were comfortable being vulnerable with us, and then how many other people in the group were like, oh, I've been through that. I can help you. Let me tell you about this.
Taya Gordon:This is what I did. Or, it it was just amazing to see. We kind of had the opportunity to we didn't really have to do a whole lot that first session. We kinda got to stand back and observe them take care of each other, which was really amazing.
Collen Luckett:That's great.
Taya Gordon:And
Kem Tolliver:so so thinking about the the deeper you know, I I I know that you asked the question and and Tayah and I kinda laugh because, you know, these are the challenges that that, you know, each individual resource group has collectively. Vary. Right? And, you know, one of those challenges that I would say the the the black health care leaders resource group, not not generally, but one of those challenges that that cropped up to the surface was imposter syndrome.
Collen Luckett:Yeah. Okay.
Kem Tolliver:And working through that together, talking about how we how we each handle that, while maintaining, you know, an ambition for continual growth. And, and also propelling each other, you know, motivating each other through our shared experiences, through our accomplishments, and through, you know, some of the, you know, the the hits and and misses that that we've experienced in our in our journeys.
Collen Luckett:Right. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. That's say no more.
Collen Luckett:I yeah. I'm sure you could go. And I don't wanna get into your space either. Like, I don't wanna, you know, intrude. Yeah.
Collen Luckett:Okay. So I'll just move on to number two. So, I think we may have covered some of it. So this so you you, talked about being mentors. So this is about that.
Collen Luckett:So as black leaders in health care, can you share what experiences you've had in finding mentors to assist you? So not as mentors, but your mentors, to assist you in your career journeys.
Taya Gordon:Oh, man. I you know, I'm a huge fan of always having mentors, continuous mentors. I believe that, having them in sort of different areas of your life is beneficial. So I pretty much at all times have at least three of them because, you know, I'm in this constant state of growth and learning, and I I wanna hear from people who are, you know, smarter, wiser, more experienced than I am. And I've been blessed with amazing mentors.
Taya Gordon:I've I've had, like, Lori Bedke, who I know has been a keynote for from GMA for several times, doctor Dazar Webby, who is works at the state department in South Dakota. He's been amazing just for professional growth and and, you know, encouraging me to continue schooling or to continue writing books and things like that. And even Kim has mentored me on a on a personal and professional level. We mentor each other sometimes, I think.
Kem Tolliver:Yeah.
Taya Gordon:And and reminding each other to, you know, grant space and grace in our own lives to also be human beings while we are professionals. And so I think there's there's probably a ton of times where we're even being mentored or mentoring others and and not even checking that box off like it is mentoring that's happening. Because we're we kinda stay in that space where we're trying to learn so much from others. But I think for formal mentors, probably Laurie and doctor Reby have been just tremendous to me.
Kem Tolliver:Yeah. And and I'll say on on on my end, Deidra Spears Johnson, she is a pioneer in, sexual health, and HIV prevention. She is, she is a phenomenal powerhouse of a woman. I definitely, rely on her expertise to help kind of ground me, in, in, in all of the, the, the many initiatives that I try to undertake, she kind of she she kind of allows me to kind of think outside the box, but then she also kind of helps pull, you know, pull a strategy out of me. And and then similarly to Tay to Tayah, you know, I think having having relationships with with multiple mentors, I think, is important because you get different perspectives on the same or on the same journey.
Kem Tolliver:So, like, I I I am the journey to my mentors. Right? So I'm looking at it from from, Deidre's perspective, and then I'm looking it from, doctor, Don Carroll, who is a, emergency medicine physician here in Maryland. They both give me different perspectives on the same journey. And then I do have again, as Tayah said, we kind of we kind of mentor each other.
Kem Tolliver:You know, I I certainly rely on Tayah, you know, to to, to to help me see some blind spots because I think we all have them, and and it's really great to have that additional support. I also have a, Larry Kibler who is, I he he's a neighbor, but he is a, you know, an entrepreneur. And he's done a lot of work, not only nationally, but internationally. And that has always been an area of interest for me. So, with with his, with his mentorship, he has kind of helped me grow into that international space.
Kem Tolliver:So I think having a few mentors giving you different perspectives is is key. And it's been really helpful to Tayah and my success.
Collen Luckett:Right. That's a nice neighbor to have.
Taya Gordon:I'm I'm
Collen Luckett:just jealous in general. I do not have any kind of mentor. My, like, my career has been really fractured. So it's like
Taya Gordon:Oh, we've gotta find you some mentors.
Collen Luckett:Oh. Yes. We do. Yeah.
Taya Gordon:That's on our to do list now.
Collen Luckett:Awesome. No. No. No. No.
Collen Luckett:No. You do not need anything else. But but thank you. I appreciate it. Alright.
Collen Luckett:So, number three was beyond so beyond people you've had personal connections within your careers, are there any other individuals you've admired or been inspired by when you started in health care? So I'm kind of like I'm kind of dancing around, like, this is Black History Month. You know, was there any, and I wanted to ask you that specifically after the interview. It's like, were were there any kind of, like, heroes? And maybe we shouldn't have heroes.
Collen Luckett:But, you know, yeah, people who inspired you in health care, that kind of thing.
Kem Tolliver:Oh, yeah. I think we both do.
Taya Gordon:Go ahead, Kim.
Kem Tolliver:Yeah. So my health care hero is doctor Hector Collison. He was a cardiologist, and, he unfortunately passed away in a plane crash with his young son. Oh, okay. But he was an amazing human being.
Kem Tolliver:He along with my dad and and my parents, because I would say, like, my immediate family, eighty percent of us are in health care.
Collen Luckett:Oh, wow.
Taya Gordon:So That is true. Like, you were
Kem Tolliver:Both of my
Taya Gordon:And and half of you have worked at the same hospital. Exactly. Nice.
Kem Tolliver:But but that that hero, Hector Collison, amazing physician, he really pushed me, to to further my career, further my education, obtain certifications. He gave me, I was I started off as his receptionist, and, he he saw an interest and wanted to mentor me. And and, you know, he he gave me ideas of of pathways to improve, you know, my opportunities to to to to grow in health care that I would not have ever thought of. So I definitely give him a lot of credit for, me being comfortable, walking into to to opportunities and seeing myself as being completely capable of doing anything that I set my mind to in health care. Great.
Taya Gordon:I love it. I think there's so many, it's hard because there's so many people. I think that personally and and professionally have helped shape us. And Kim and I even I mean, even when we were we were trying to write, like, thank yous and acknowledgments for our book, and we kept being told, like, there's a limit to how many people you can list, and we're like, but we take inspiration from so many people. I will say that one one journey that I have always found really inspiring was Regina Benjamin.
Taya Gordon:And, she was a physician. She was in the military for quite some time, but she lived in, I believe it was Louisiana. Basically, she recognized a need, for rural health care. And so she was like, let's get to it and just, you know, kind of boots to the ground was like, we're gonna put up some some rural health clinics, and we're gonna take care of these people because there's a job here that needs doing. And she did it, and she did it well.
Taya Gordon:And even recognizing that, you know, maybe that was gonna be really difficult. Maybe it was gonna be, really costly. She might run into some opposition, and she just, I mean, absolutely knocked it out of the park and and did everything she needed to do to get it taken care of. I believe she won, the Nelson Mandela award too. You would have to fact check that because, but I just find that journey so inspiring.
Taya Gordon:Just, you know, here's a woman who said there's a job that needs doing, and I'm just gonna tackle it. And and doing such tremendous good from the community because of it is
Collen Luckett:is just
Taya Gordon:kind of phenomenal. Yeah. Amazing.
Kem Tolliver:You know what I think is also interesting about those health care heroes is how they shaped our perception of what our contributions will be to health care. Yes. Right? So a long time ago, I thought about going to medical school based on the relationship that I had with doctor Collison and the relationship that he had with his patients. His patients adored him.
Kem Tolliver:They would sit for hours and wait for this man while he was in emergency surgery Oh. You know, saving a patient's life. I mean, just he was a pillar of the community. So I think, you know, that inspiration allowed Tayah and I to to see ourselves as as, do gooders in health care and, be able to to give our own individual contributions back to health care.
Taya Gordon:I think it also makes it harder not to jump the hurdle. Right? Because anytime we've been faced with a challenge or a barrier or something, we're like, oh, man. Can we do this? And then you sort of look at all these other inspiring people, and you're like, okay.
Taya Gordon:We kinda gotta do this.
Collen Luckett:We don't Yeah.
Taya Gordon:It so it makes it harder not to jump that hurdle. And I think because of that, it propels all of us forward.
Collen Luckett:Right. Well, I'm so sorry to hear about doctor Collison. You said that's Yeah. Sad. What a loss.
Kem Tolliver:Oh, yeah. Yeah. The the entire, DC, Maryland, and Virginia community mourned his loss. Like, it was a it was very newsworthy. He was a he, you know, there he had office hours back in the day when, you know, an office closed when it closed.
Kem Tolliver:He would just keep the office open. He just was a a again, just a selfless human being. Oh. Yeah.
Taya Gordon:I often wonder is that.
Collen Luckett:Yeah. Why do we lose people like that when
Taya Gordon:I know. Yes.
Kem Tolliver:I know.
Taya Gordon:I know.
Collen Luckett:Ugh. It's not fair. Ugh. Thank you for sharing that. Thanks.
Collen Luckett:Yeah. Alright. And let's see. Number four. Okay.
Collen Luckett:So, many practice and health system leaders talk about the difficulty of generational differences in the workforce. So we're talking about Gen z versus Boomer, so all that. At the same time, there are lots of opportunities to learn for, of course, from the challenges and successes of past generations. Have has any of that been a topic of discussion among your resource group, members or with you all personally?
Taya Gordon:I think that's such a great question because so many of us and I'm not gonna speak for everybody in the group. I can speak for myself and some of the others I've spoken with, but so many of us were raised to respect your elders, period.
Collen Luckett:Uh-huh.
Taya Gordon:They are a powerhouse of knowledge, and you respect that. You absorb as much as you possibly can before they're not here to kind of pour that into you. And that's always been something that's at the heart of everything I do. I know chem feels very much the same way. But then when you look at sort of the younger generation, those are the ones that are teaching us work life balance.
Taya Gordon:We did not know that that was a thing and that it was important, and, we were all working ourselves in and I I don't wanna say all of us, but so many of us are working ourselves into early graves with stress and high blood pressure, whatever, simply because we're not giving ourselves any space and grace to take care of ourselves. And so I think there's necessity to learn from our elders. I was very much raised in that family, very matriarchal family. My grandmother was the oldest of 11, and I know all my great aunts and uncles and all my cousins, and we're all still, like, very close. Even though I don't live near any of them anymore, if I call them, they pick up always.
Taya Gordon:You know, we're we're all still very close. But I learned so much from both sides of that fence. I think that there's there's something very informative about being in the middle. But I was on a call, and it was just yesterday, with a colleague of mine, and she was mentioning how everybody that was in the generation older than her and her family was now gone, and she realized that shift. And that now she is the older generation, and she is the elder, and and how she was viewing that.
Taya Gordon:And so I'm actually sort of intrigued to see what happens when I'm not in the middle of this shift. Right? Like,
Kem Tolliver:I've I've gotten past I
Taya Gordon:don't wanna hear what other people have to tell me. Right? I'm, like, listening to everything the elders have to say. I'm listening to everything the younger generation has to say. So I'm I'm nervous about what happens when I don't have that advice on the other side.
Collen Luckett:You become that person.
Kem Tolliver:Yeah. We are the new we are the new adults.
Collen Luckett:Yes. That's so weird to us. I hear you.
Kem Tolliver:That happens. Yeah. You know, so I'll I'll speak, about this topic in my company. They're so so the way that that we're kinda structured is we rely on, multigenerational expertise. So we have a relationship with Johns Hopkins, School of Public Health for, student interns.
Kem Tolliver:So they come in and they do a rotation with us, and we get to learn so many really cool things. I can't tell you how much I've learned from Nick and Jack and Yeah. You know, all of our all of our student interns. Not only, technology because as Tayah knows, I am, you know, I am tech tech You love
Taya Gordon:technology, and it hates you.
Kem Tolliver:Hates you.
Collen Luckett:I don't know why.
Kem Tolliver:So so we have that, that opportunity to learn from to learn from, you the the younger generation. And so for for my generation, Gen X, we we also, I guess, you know, we're kind of in the middle. Right? Right now, millennials and Gen Xs. And, you know, the the team members that that that are in that space, we're able to soak up and absorb information from that, you know, the the the younger generation, but we're also able to guide them.
Kem Tolliver:And I love seeing how my Gen X team members and millennial team members are interacting with that younger generation. We recently had one of our students change her major to, become a master in health care administration based on the work that she's been doing with some of our team members. So, I I mean, I think that's just it's so powerful. And then having boomers so for me, again, as Tayah said, you know, we're raised with certain level of of respect that we have. I am soaking up all the knowledge that I possibly can from Steve and from Denise and from Monica because, oh my gosh, they bring so much, they bring so much wisdom to the team.
Kem Tolliver:So so we're all able to collectively learn from each other, and, I couldn't have it any other way. We have to have that multigenerational, learning opportunity, and being exposed to new ideas, old ideas, and and, you know, those those ways of of thinking that that are gonna collaborate and pull, align all of that together.
