MGMA Insights: Discovering the Power of Human Connection with Rob Lawless
Download MP3Well, everyone. I'm Daniel Williams, senior editor at MGMA and host of the MGMA Podcast Network. Today, I'm speaking with one of our upcoming keynote speakers, Rob Lawless. He's the founder of Rob's ten ks Friends LLC, and he is one of our keynote speakers at our upcoming MGMA Financial Conference that's in April 13 through the fifteenth in Washington, DC. So I know that's going to be a great event and a great session.
Daniel Williams:But Rob has done something pretty interesting. He has embarked on what is an incredible journey to meet 10,000 different people for one hour each. Unfortunately, I'm not gonna count. We're only gonna be talking thirty minutes here, so maybe I'm half a person. I don't know how Rob calculates that.
Daniel Williams:We can figure that out. But his keynote is discover the untapped value of human connection. Rob Lawless, welcome to the show.
Rob Lawless:Thank you for having me, Daniel. Good to be here, and, very excited for the event next month.
Daniel Williams:Yeah. So I don't know if you've heard this question 10,000 times, but where did this idea come from? This meeting 10,000 people and talking to them for an hour each. Yeah. I think and I don't
Rob Lawless:know if I was able to put it into words until I got further along in the project, but I have this belief that every human interaction, no matter how brief, has the potential to change your life. And I've always been a people person, and I think there's so much value that comes from it. And I saw it in a very authentic way when I was a student at Penn State University. Both my older siblings went there, so I kinda knew what I could get involved with once I arrived on campus. And I hit the ground running.
Rob Lawless:I raised money for the fight against pediatric cancer. I joined a fraternity that restarted. I gave tours to prospective students. I would do habitat for humanity trips over spring breaks. I was a homecoming captain, and my brother was a junior when I was a freshman.
Rob Lawless:But by the end of freshman year, I knew more people on campus than he did. I was just that type of person. Mhmm. And I studied finance and minored in accounting and entrepreneurship. But when I graduated and looked back on my time at Penn State, it's not my degree or the classes that drove the value I got out of that experience.
Rob Lawless:It was the people that I met. And I think I didn't anticipate the contrast of connection from school to connection in the real world. It felt in school was so authentic and easy, and in the real world, it had to be so agenda driven, and I wasn't ready for that shift. And it was a struggle for me to go into that environment. I started doing consulting for Deloitte straight out of school.
Rob Lawless:So you go from, like, this great college campus into a cubicle. You're staring into Excel sheets for twelve hours a day. And that was tough for me. And I wanted to get back to a place of just meeting people without any agenda because I still believed there was a lot of value to it. It didn't make sense to me that people weren't doing this in the real world.
Rob Lawless:So after leaving Deloitte and going to a tech startup and feeling the same way, I was like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna try to meet 10,000 different people. And I was just talking to someone last night. And they said, what's the goal with the interactions? And I said, there is very intentionally not a goal.
Rob Lawless:Because I think if we try to get somewhere with someone, we're closing off all the other value that can come from that interaction. So curiosity drives a lot of what I do in the sense that I'm very curious to see if you do the act of meeting 10,000 people one on one for one hour each, what does that blossom into? I'll only be able to tell you in hindsight, but the uncertainty of that and the excitement of that is what drives me.
Daniel Williams:Yeah. So you were at Deloitte. You talked about that. I know that they definitely analyze and measure things. So with your 10,000 interactions an hour each, how do you calculate that?
Daniel Williams:Do you have a little egg counter there? You set the timer and it's ticking beside you the whole time? And if somebody gets up and goes to the bathroom or leaves you for a second to answer a phone call, does that stop the ticking time?
Rob Lawless:It is not that intense. It's yeah. Why everyone knows that they're coming into this experience. So if I am at a graduation party and I'm talking to someone for an hour, I don't hit the tire and say, okay. You're now part of this thing.
Rob Lawless:I'm doing this.
Daniel Williams:Right.
Rob Lawless:It's people know beforehand because I keep track of their stories on Instagram, and my account is Rob's ten k friends. So if you go to my page today, as of this moment, I would have 6,826 posts, which means I've met 6,826 people. And all of those people have agreed to spend an hour with me, so we'll set a set a time at a coffee shop or now do it through Zoom as well. So I'm sending calendar invites and blocking off that time. But a lot of it too, there was a street artist that I met early on, and he was like, well, I have to do this no parking garage sign or no parking sign on this garage.
Rob Lawless:You can hang with me while I do this. So he was painting
Daniel Williams:Okay.
Rob Lawless:For most of our interaction together. But then I got to chat with him, and I got to be present for his work. So sometimes it looks like that as well where I I'm just stepping into someone else's shoes for an hour. And that too is what I wanted to get out of the experience was to get out of my own path a little bit and into other people's paths.
Daniel Williams:Wow. I think you answered the question. I was going to follow-up and ask you about consent. So you do discuss this with people ahead of time. They know they're going to be part of this project.
Daniel Williams:How does that conversation go? Have you ever had anybody say, absolutely not. I'm not gonna be one of your 10 k friends there, Rob?
Rob Lawless:Yeah. In the beginning, I mean, I I worked in sales at the tech startup before doing this full time, and you're always asking people for the time in sales, and you get rejected often. So luckily, I had built up that thick skin before I approached this. And my whole mindset with the project too is, like, 10,000 people is such a small percentage of the overall world population
Daniel Williams:Right.
Rob Lawless:That not everyone has to say yes. And if people I guess what's interesting is it's kind of like if you build it, they will come. And I I set this goal. I started working towards it, and I was reaching out to a bunch of people. But eventually, the the script flipped where people started to reach out to me.
Rob Lawless:And then it got to the point where I had, like, a waiting line of people that reached out to me, and then I didn't have enough time in the day to meet all the people that were reaching out to me at one time. So there was no longer the issue of me having to find people to meet and asking their consent because they were excited about what I was doing, and they wanted to be part of it. And it's kinda cool because I'm approaching it's gonna take probably seven more years to complete the journey, but I'm approaching the end. And once I cross 7,000, the window is starting to close. So it's like there I honestly, I think I might be the only person in human history to intentionally sit down with 10,000 people one on one for one hour each.
Rob Lawless:And it is all in all going to be like a seventeen year project. So I don't know if anyone is gonna come do this again. So for other people, it's just a an opportunity to be part of something cool. And yeah. But before I meet with them, I especially with Zoom, I record the conversations just to post a sixty second clip.
Rob Lawless:It's not a podcast. It's not an interview. It's really just two people coming together to get to know each other. But I'll always ask people, hey. Do you mind if I record this so I can just share that clip afterwards?
Rob Lawless:And then the people who know my project know that I share what I learned with their story to my Instagram account.
Daniel Williams:Yeah. That is so cool. So you said it's going to be seventeen years by the time you stop. Did you do the math ahead of time? What was your goal?
Daniel Williams:What how many years did you think it was going to take?
Rob Lawless:I thought it was gonna take five to ten years. And I think in the first few emails, I pulled people aggressively four years. Okay. So clearly, I'm not good at math. I was not doing but I thought the way and that's been interesting because other people, I can see how off they are on the calculations of how long it takes me.
Rob Lawless:In COVID, for example, people started to see me posting all these virtual things. So they just assumed that I started the project during COVID, and they just told themselves that story. I'm sure people in your field know what it's like when people have misconceptions about the field or about the brand, whatever. And a lot of people would be like, oh, I know you started this in COVID because we couldn't meet each other. So this is really cool, and you're at 5,000 people in two years.
Rob Lawless:I said, no. I've been doing this since 2015. So but I had that misconception. I thought take a forty hour work week, eight hours a day, eight people a day. That did not take into account going to the bathroom, writing people's stories, traveling in between meetings, taking a lunch break.
Rob Lawless:So now I try to move at a pace of four people a day
Daniel Williams:Okay.
Rob Lawless:If I'm not traveling to to speak.
Daniel Williams:Okay.
Rob Lawless:So the and and I'm saying seven years because I'm 34 now.
Daniel Williams:Okay.
Rob Lawless:I think it'd be cool to finish by the time I'm 40. My birthday is in January, so I basically have six years and nine months. I'll still be 40. So, yeah, that's just kind of the unofficial goal right now. But to meet that, I would need to meet about 50 people a month from here on out.
Daniel Williams:That's incredible. So I'm just I'm so fascinated with this. This is one of the coolest things I promise you I've ever heard.
Rob Lawless:So Oh, thank you.
Daniel Williams:Did you get to 10 where did the 10,000 number come from? Because I've seen it in Malcolm Gladwell's writing because you become an expert in a particular field if you spend ten thousand hours with it. Was it influenced by that or something else? Where did you come up with this number?
Rob Lawless:Maybe subconsciously. I read that book, Outliers in But the initial goal was to meet 10,000 people for ten minutes at a time in one year. And as you can imagine, that never would have worked. So it just sat as that idea for a year and a half until I matured a little bit. And then I thought, okay.
Rob Lawless:I don't wanna do this in a year. I actually wanna take the time to get to know people. So when I pass them, the next time it says a friend as opposed to a stranger. Like an hour is not enough to really understand someone's life, but it's enough to just scratch the surface. And I wanted to do that with people to establish a connection with them.
Rob Lawless:I would describe it more as Seth Godin has a book called The Purple Cow. Yeah. And he says, if you drive past a farm and you see a cow, you're not going to think twice. But if you drive past a farm and you see a purple cow, you're out, you're taking videos of it, you're uploading it to TikTok, Instagram, whatever. So how do you turn things purple?
Rob Lawless:Like, to meet a person is not anything crazy. To meet a hundred people is really not anything crazy. But to meet 10,000 was my way of turning concept purple, if that makes sense. And I knew that I wanted to do something with connection that I could potentially turn into my career. A lot of times people ask me, oh, did you ever think it was going to get this big?
Rob Lawless:Or did you ever think it could lead to this? And I'm thinking it has not gotten nearly as big as I thought it could get. Otherwise, I wouldn't have dove into it full time as a career. So, yeah, it was just, I think, the thing that allowed it to intrigue people and to to make it a challenge that was going to be further than the average person would go.
Daniel Williams:Okay. What are you learning about so your number, in my notes you were at 5,400 people, so you're you're now at sixty eight and twenty six or 36? What's your number now?
Rob Lawless:I just met 6,827.
Daniel Williams:There you go. Okay. So what are you learning about human connection after 6,800, more than 6,800 intentional conversations with individuals out there?
Rob Lawless:Well, and I talk about this in my talk, but I think there's an increased sense of belonging with everyone that you meet. Because when you meet someone, you turn on your awareness of that person. And what's important to them in a way becomes important to you. It's similar to when you buy a yellow car, you start to see yellow cars out on the road. Right.
Rob Lawless:And I run into people from my project all the time, which is really great. I saw someone today in the coffee shop that I had met last year. So and if I didn't meet him, he'd just be another strange face in the coffee shop. But because I met him, I'm like, oh, that's Charlie. I know him.
Rob Lawless:He lives next door to me. And and I know he lives in the neighborhood because we took the time to meet with each other. But you also start to understand that people have different experiences than you did. I think the first time I really felt that is when you went to college. I remember my roommates I just came from a household.
Rob Lawless:I guess our dishwasher wasn't the greatest. We would always wash the dishes before putting it in the dishwasher. And my friends were like, why are you doing that? Just put the dish in the dishwasher. That's what it's for.
Rob Lawless:Like, well, that's what my mom did all the time. So that's so you start to realize, oh, people grew up differently than I did. And then you take that, extrapolate it with 6,800 people, and you start to understand, like, the I just met with a woman who grew up in Latvia during the Soviet Union. She got expelled from school because she wanted to leave the country. She ended up in Israel and then came to The US.
Rob Lawless:And she was telling me about how she lost her brother when she was 31 years old and how it was one of the most tragic things that ever happened in her life. I have two older siblings. My brother is 35. My sister is 39. And if I hear her story, I can contextualize that I'm very lucky that my brother has now made it four years beyond her brother, my sister has now made it eight years beyond her brother.
Rob Lawless:What a gift. Whereas without that context, might think, well, yeah, of course, my siblings are alive, they're supposed to be alive. So when you have the reference points of other people's lives, it helps you contextualize your own. And it's where you get a lot of gratitude from, you start to realize, like, I've had all these gifts in my life, let me be appreciative of them before they're gone. And the other thing is it leads to new opportunities, whether it's for me speaking engagements that have come from people that I've met, who I just tell them that's how I survive, and then they're like, oh, you should speak at this event.
Rob Lawless:Or, for example, I met a flight attendant when I lived in Los Angeles, and he gave me his buddy pass to fly anywhere that Southwest flew. So three weeks later, I went to Maui, Hawaii. Stayed at a cheap hostel there, met these two friends, this guy and this girl, that were just traveling there that night, and we traveled the whole day, the next day together. This was in 2019, and then two years ago they texted me and they said, hey, surprised we got engaged. And I said, Oh, that's great, congrats.
Rob Lawless:And they said, Yeah, we wanted to know if you would officiate our wedding. I said, Yeah, sure. So I officiated their wedding last July in Sacramento, and it's just that adventure that came from meeting these people. So all those things come from connection, and I think the biggest thing I've learned is no one really knows what they're doing with their lives. Everyone's just doing the best they can with the resources that they have.
Rob Lawless:And if you are pursuing something, which any of us are, I think it's very natural to go through cycles of confidence and doubt as a human. And understanding that so many other people are going through those cycles has made me more comfortable when I go through them myself. Mhmm. I still have a lot of uncertainties and insecurities in my life. I still get up on stage and I'm terrified to speak.
Rob Lawless:And I sometimes am terrified to have chats with people, but it doesn't mean that I don't do it. And when I understand that other people are pushing through their fears, it makes it easier for me to do that with mine. So that's many things, but those are a few different things that I've learned.
Daniel Williams:Yeah. Let's talk about the act of an intentional interaction, because that's what you said earlier was one of your goals of this project, is to really sit down with people and have an intentional interaction with them. I think we've all been in situations where we sit down with someone, we're talking to them, and now that we have these smart devices in our hands, they're looking at the device. You're looking at the top of their head. We hear that a lot in health care, where patients give feedback to physicians and other clinicians, and they're staring at the top of their head as they're typing into an iPad the whole time.
Daniel Williams:And so you're losing some of that really human connection. So as we conclude here, what are some things people can do to really be intentional when they interact with someone?
Rob Lawless:I would say visualize their story. I say you can think about anyone's life like a timeline or like the plot of a movie, and you can tease out their story by just asking questions in the different facets of their life. So I have this friend framework. And it stands for family and relationships, industry, which is like your education into your career path, entertainment, which would be your hobbies outside of work and needs and dreams. So what are your dreams for the future, and what do you need to get there?
Rob Lawless:I oftentimes, when I meet people in person, I don't take notes. I don't do anything like that. And then I write these very detailed stories of them. And people are so surprised, and they think it's such a skill. And I say, well, if you went and saw the Harry Potter movie Yeah.
Rob Lawless:You could tell me who the characters were in the movie. You could tell me where the film took place. You could tell me the evolution of the plot, what their challenges were, and what happened. I'm doing the same exact thing when I talk to people. And as I hear their story, I'm watching that movie.
Rob Lawless:So then when it's time to retell it, I'm just retelling the movie that I just watched. And I think we all have that capability, but I think it's the practice that makes you better at it. And another thing for me is the act of writing people's stories afterwards. It forces you to be present. And I think for people who are running their own practices, like if you're trying to connect with your colleagues on a deeper level or you want them you wanna increase the engagement and retention of your talent, I think everyone should take an hour to sit with their employees, listen, and then write their story back to them.
Rob Lawless:Because when you write that story back to them, two things happen. One, it forces you to actively listen, because you're kind of screwed if you don't listen. It's like trying to take a test without ever reading the textbook. And two, when you can relay them information that they thought would have gone over your head, it creates a really special experience for them of being seen and heard. And I think those are really important things in today's work environment.
Daniel Williams:Yeah. Rob, if people listening are interested in the friendship framework, if they are interested in following your journey over the next seven years, or maybe we'll shave that down six years, nine months so you can get there before you're 40. How would they do that? Where do they go?
Rob Lawless:They can go to my Instagram, which is Rob's ten k friends, and that's kind of always been the home of my project and my journey where I take a picture with everyone, I share their story. And if anyone wants to meet with me, all they have to do is shoot me a message, say, hey. I'd like to be a part of your project, and we'll set up a time. And they don't need to be interesting. People will always shoot me messages and say, I'd love to meet with you, but I'm not interesting like everyone else you're meeting.
Rob Lawless:One, yes. You are. And two, I don't care if you're interesting or not. I'm not trying to meet interesting people. I'm trying to connect with other everyday people.
Rob Lawless:So, yeah, if they hear it, they're interested, please shoot me a message. I would love to meet with them.
Daniel Williams:Love that. Rob Lawless, thanks for joining us today and thanks for this amazing project that you're involved in.
Rob Lawless:Thank you. It's my pleasure and I'm very appreciative that I get to share my story. So thank you for the platform.
Daniel Williams:All right. Well, is going to do it for this episode of MGMA Insights. We've been joined today by Rob Lawless, and we will put all those resources in our episode show notes. You can just click right through and you can follow Rob's journey. Hopefully, you're going to be at that MGMA Financial Conference April thirteenth through the fifteenth in Washington, D.
Daniel Williams:C, you can see Rob live and perhaps even be put into his Instagram feed. So until then, thank you all for being MGMA podcast listeners.
